Growth and community questions

Phuks seems content on small growth with little to no advertising on other sites

I for one am content. Small communities where everyone knows everyone tend to be nicer and less trollable. I'd prefer having many small sites to a few big ones.

There’s a lot of cross posts on all three sites. Does this hinder community growth?

It makes it less attractive to browse multiple sites, which could cause users to stay with their favourite one.

[–] Hitchens [OP] 6 points (+6|-0)

I for one am content. Small communities where everyone knows everyone tend to be nicer and less trollable.

I’m with you there but I wouldn’t mind Phuks getting a bit more active users.

And yes I do think eventually people will pick a favorite to provide content too and just lurk the other two sites.

[–] Sarcastaway 1 points (+1|-0)

It makes it less attractive to browse multiple sites, which could cause users to stay with their favourite one.

At the risk of sounding overly conspiracy-minded, it makes me wonder if that's the purpose of the crossposting. It reinforces the "divide" in "divide and destroy."

[+] [Deleted] 0 points (+0|-0)

[–] InnocentBystander 8 points (+9|-1)

Puttitout couldn't be more wrong when he stated that what makes the site is the infrastructure and the community is irrelevant.
Voat changed as the old community left, and a new radicalized community moved in.
That's why Voat will always be a failure. The admins never understood that the community was the only value the site had. The actual code is really bad.

Phuks and Poal both understand this. But they have slightly differing goals.
Poal wants an "anything goes, no limits of speech" area, Phuks is trying for a mixed, non-partisan community. I am not sure of this, but I think Poal would be happy to become a new and better Voat. Phuks has a less mapped out future, and less desire to grow. Slow organic growth is generally preferred, since it rocks the community less. A large exodus can displace existing communities.

There is certainly some overlap, and I don't see that being a problem for anything.

[–] E-werd 7 points (+7|-0)

I am not sure of this, but I think Poal would be happy to become a new and better Voat.

That's my understanding. I don't have a problem with Poal, I consider it a sister site of sorts to Phuks. That said, you just won't find me there much for the same reasons I haven't really been around voat for a couple years. It's just not for me, and that's OK.

The slow growth is a double edge sword for me personally. Because I've got a shorter attention span and an addiction to novelty, I prefer a busy site--there's always something new to see. But after a certain size you can't know or recognize everybody, or in reddit's case anybody. I like recognizing and "knowing" people, I prefer that and it only comes with smallness. Sure, Phuks could advertise, but I've seen what happens.

I ran a Minecraft server, Werdcraft, after Voatcraft took the money and ran, just like Voat has gone the admins simply fell off the face of the earth and weren't participating in or running the server anymore. I felt the community deserved better so I just got some people aboard and did it. It went good, but eventually people got tired of playing Minecraft--it happens to everybody. The server basically died. Before it completely died, I tried to advertise and attract more people to 1) keep it interesting for who was left and 2) keep the community from dying completely. Well, the need to manage the community got a lot higher when people just came in to shit all over everything--it was a bad time, and totally backfired. Advertising actually accelerated the death of the community. Everybody left and I gave up and shut it down.

Any, I'm concerned about that happening from advertising: attracting too much attention too fast, causing too much work for admin staff and sub moderators, leading to everybody determine that it's just not fun anymore. I don't know what the best answer is, but the current track seems to be going pretty good I think.

[–] Hitchens [OP] 4 points (+4|-0)

I like recognizing and "knowing" people, I prefer that and it only comes with smallness.

I'm the same way.

[–] PMYA 6 points (+6|-0)

the actual code is really bad

I was looking at Alexa yesterday and noticed that their load speed is only better than 57% of other sites. Pretty poor for a site that needs multiple loads per minute whilst browsing.

[–] Hitchens [OP] 3 points (+3|-0)

Is Alexa a good source to see how a website it doing? I’ve heard conflicting things about it.

[–] PMYA 4 points (+4|-0)

Not really. Apparently they collect their data from people using toolbars/extensions and browsing sites, which I refuse to believe is their primary source of data.

It's unclear how they collect everything so it's hard to determine if it's accurate. Traffic increases and decreases for Phuks are generally accurate though.

[–] Hitchens [OP] 5 points (+5|-0)

Nail on head about community and Putts complete denial about that fact. I personally feel Atko understood this better but burnt out quicker.

There were more then a handful of very unique subs only on voat thriving during the prime. All community driven and now all lost to mismanagement of the admins.

[–] ScorpioGlitch 4 points (+4|-0)

The first thing PuttItOut should have done upon taking the admin role of the site was:

Install a site monitoring service so he would know within 3 to 5 minutes if the site was down.
Appointed a small group of people to make small to medium site decisions as well as enforce site-wide rules and perform specialized site tasks. As I recall, voat's "featured sub" is not entered via a console page but has to be entered manually and directly into the database.
Initiated complete and constant transparency as to who admins, site trustees, and developers are. That point right there has been a constant, long-term, and permanent point of abuse.
Not attacked users for pointing these things out.

As for what kind of community phuks will have, it will have to be up to the community itself. I think most people are completely burned out on political polarization. Of course, there are trolls who lie or spin, people who complain about the community not wanting specific behaviors, and other troll-like behavior. Those people should not be ignored or welcomed if (and only if) the community decides that they don't want that kind of growth. Those people should be made to feel as unwelcome as the nuisance the community perceives them to be but only because the tendency for political polarization to infiltrate sites is insane right now. In other words, those people spoiling for fights and arguments should not be made to feel welcome as it is old, tired, divisive, and contrary to growth. We have all seen or heard of these kinds of people on voat repeatedly and what they do to a community and should avoid the same mistakes voat made: allow them to continue with their nonsense.

Phuks has been and should continue to be a place without trolls.

[–] Hitchens [OP] 6 points (+6|-0)

Putt is a classic example of how a great worker doesn’t always make for a great manager. He had zero management skills and that lack of awareness killed the site.

Phuks has been and should continue to be a place without trolls.

They’re already migrating to Poal which makes me stay here at Phuks.

[–] PMYA 8 points (+8|-0)

I think growth as a necessity is a strange concept. The vast majority, if not all of the users here, are familiar with other aggregators and the issues they have. For a long time we went on with basically no growth at all, but I would argue that this is actually a positive thing in terms of the long term development of the site. We have never had the "holy shit we have 300 things that need to be sorted out within 24 hours" periods that Voat has had, and Reddit has moved into an era of designing every aspect of the site around monetisation.

The result of our approach to advertising (or not advertising) the site is that we have a small community that is easy to get feedback from and an environment where development on the site is never a necessity. Things can be gradually improved or changed when people have time or want to work on the site, rather than needing to.

I think one of the most positive aspects of the site is that users actually have input over what is going to happen to the site. Reddit is never going to have that again, and Voat has been slowly stripping features for a while now, with nothing really going on. Poal is up in the air really, it's too soon to tell what is going to happen with it. We have managed to create a different situation than the one that exists on Voat in a number of ways, Poal needs to find a way to avoid that and also start implementing some stuff on the dev side that sets it apart from phuks.

[–] Hitchens [OP] 8 points (+8|-0)

The result of our approach to advertising (or not advertising) the site is that we have a small community that is easy to get feedback from and an environment where development on the site is never a necessity

The most refreshing thing about Phuks and what keeps me here.

I know Poal is extremely young so much question or thoughts are probably premature.

[–] pmyb2 4 points (+4|-0)

I agree we don’t really know what will happen with poal, i hope it doesn’t go the way voat did. Voat wasn’t about free speech anymore it was about driving away anyone with a different opinion. That is not what I want poal to be.

[–] Owlchemy 7 points (+7|-0)

Having been posting on Phuks before the 'days of darkness' that chased many away, I think the philosophy of both is similar, but also very different. Just as when I posted to Voat, I posted here, and now it's the same for me between Phuks, Poal, and a smaller site Voten.co. Hell, I just enjoy reading rather than watching TV, so I share stuff I read for fun. Being retired, I have the time, many don't ... but I digress.

History: Poal is actually a recent spinoff of Phuks. The Phuks admins, to their credit, offered those who had a problem with Phuks TOS and wished to flee Voat the opportunity to use their code to create Poal, with a slightly modified TOS. The admins here worked closely with PMMEYOUR_BOOBS2 to develop and get Poal going. Kudos to Phuks for their willingness to share and help. So anyway, IMHO this leads to two separate, but similar forums. One, Phuks, doesn't permit (from TOS) "Posting content of any kind that incites discrimination, hate or violence towards one person or a group of people because of their belonging to a race, religion or nation is strictly prohibited." ... the other, Poal, has removed this TOS to the best of my knowledge. So a clear choice is given users of either or both.

Again, in my opinion, it was the overboard hate crap that was running down Voat as time went on. Years ago when I started there it was easy to avoid, but in the later days it seemed to take over and it was difficult to ignore because there was so much. So if I have a personal preference, it's Phuks, because of this. But like many, I'd like Poal to succeed, too, and I'll post there until it takes that same dive down. I fully agree with freedom to say what you please, I really do, but given the choice, I'll take the civil over the wild west.

These are simply my thoughts ... do they make sense?

[–] Hitchens [OP] 5 points (+5|-0)

I really do, but given the choice, I'll take the civil over the wild west.

Do you consider Poal to be an extension of that Wild West? To me, Poal is gaining the users I actually tried to avoid on voat.

[–] Owlchemy 6 points (+6|-0)

Maybe wild west is a bit harsh ... but my feeling too. Yet it's too early to tell, so I'll give it a chance. I do have the feeling it will devolve as Voat did though, which is why I prefer Phuks, if I had to choose one. The TOS here may limit speech slightly ... but even the US Constitution recognizes there are legitimate limits and lines that shouldn't be crossed. Voat's downfall is not imposing any limits, which may lead to the same for Poal.

[–] TheTrigger 2 points (+2|-0)

Voat's downfall is not imposing any limits

This, unfortunately, is a lesson that is showing to be hard-learnt. Although, those limits don't have to be overbearing. For example, enforcing sub rules, should be taken more seriously, to avoid cancerous run-off from spilling over. Making sure people have all the tools for self-censorship, would be a goal to keep in mind. As well as maybe sanitizing the front page. Leave "NSFW" topics hidden, unless you specifically log in and tick a, "show NSFW content" option.

I'd say to put all this effort in to allowing "hateful" content, while quarantining it from the "main" content, because a lot of those people would most likely still partake and contribute to other, unrelated, parts of the site. This is what, IMHO, allows the chans to keep going and remain so popular. You can go to /pol/ and talk all day about "the JQ" and "niggers". But none of that flies in any other spot, like /wg/ or /fit/; even though there's most-definitely overlap in the user base. But be strict about maintaining boundaries, so that everyone has a place where they can spend time— unperturbed by other factions.

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[–] pmyb2 2 points (+2|-0)

I think the limit is where your “speech” ie votes are used to silence others. Brigading I think is what really happened to voat I’m going to try and prevent it from happening to poal. Not saying I will succeed for sure but I’ll give it my best shot.

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[–] Hitchens [OP] 1 points (+1|-0)

Voat's downfall is not imposing any limits, which may lead to the same for Poal.

Very much agree with your sentiments. Putts hands off approach to managing was not what voat needed.

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[–] E-werd 4 points (+4|-0)

But like many, I'd like Poal to succeed, too, and I'll post there until it takes that same dive down.

I think this is inevitable. I feel that true 100% free speech, as it's seen at Voat, is incompatible with civility in the long run. The ironic part is that it's not even truly free, it's mob rule and you will be effectively silenced if your voice doesn't fit in the narrative.

[–] Owlchemy 3 points (+3|-0)

Agree.

[–] PMYA 3 points (+3|-0)

Voten apparently gets more traffic than us. Is there less activity there?

[–] Owlchemy 3 points (+3|-0)

Very little activity on Voten. I only post there because I found it a good while back when searching for Voat alternatives and the guy who's coding it (Sully) is a great guy. So I try to help him by posting - LOL. But to answer your question, it's never really taken off. Very few post there, though I think it has a pretty decent user base.

[–] pmyb2 5 points (+5|-0)

Well happy Friday to you as well. I'm the big bad guy that put up poal(thanks to all the guys at phuks Pembo and Polsaker you guys are awesome and should get medals) I am agressively pushing to gain users you are right on that. The reason being I would like to see the free speech community grow. I'd like to see it get huge. However thats not too say I want places like phuks not around, this place is great and as long as they will let me I'd like to stick around. Honestly I don't think multiple platforms with different rules hurts growth I think it helps it. If you find phuks and want too just let loose maybe you discover poal and you can enjoy both.

I guess I think there is room for both places on the internet and think both can be successful even collaborate and work together to grow.

[–] Hitchens [OP] 5 points (+5|-0)

Edited

I'm the big bad guy that put up poal

Never called you a bad guy and anyone who's been on any of three sites in the past month knows you started poal from help from phuks. I've even made a post praising the admins here for their generosity.

Edit:

I hit send by accident before I was finished.

Good luck to you and poal. Free speech is a noble endeavor.

[–] pmyb2 1 points (+1|-0)

No I’m a big bad guy, a super villain of sorts. I was just point it out since no one has seemed to notice yet.

[–] ScorpioGlitch 5 points (+5|-0)

The social content aggregator site as we see now is old and tried and maybe even tired. Unless there's a novel twist to it, you're only going to grow from the castouts and disillusioned from other sites (maybe even quirky?).

Fark, then Digg, then Reddit. It's like MySpace then Facebook and now no one can get a foot in because it's all been done before. So trying to grow clones is a lot of difficult work. And the only thing that keeps previous sites going is niche subs where a community has organically grown. For example, you are highly likely to find a sub for your local area on reddit but you'll be hard pressed to find one on any of the clones. This creates stickiness.

You want to grow a site? Create stickiness in a way that practically demands site/brand loyalty.

[–] Hitchens [OP] 3 points (+3|-0)

You want to grow a site? Create stickiness in a way that practically demands site/brand loyalty.

I like your thoughts here.

I felt voat had that stickiness for awhile and not just the stickiness of ‘free speech’

[–] ScorpioGlitch 2 points (+2|-0)

Not my thinking, just plain, simple marketing and business thinking.

Voat had site community cohesiveness but not sub cohesiveness. As a result, people contrary to the goals of the voat community were able to slip in between the cracks, take over subs, behave in a manner contrary to stated site intents. That destroys stickiness. If you want stickiness, you'll have to also moderate trouble-makers.

[–] Hitchens [OP] 3 points (+3|-0)

Edited

Voat had site community cohesiveness but not sub cohesiveness

Have time to expand on this?

Are you speaking of general subs and systems subs?

I liked that non general subs could make up their own sub guidelines. One of the reasons I left voat was that little subs with clear rules were being trolled because they didn’t allow all free speech. I thought small subs like the craft subs should be able to inforce rules that keep the topics to crafting.

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[–] Kannibal 5 points (+5|-0)

problem seems to be when multiple tribes cannot put up with the others.

one problem was the refugee problem.

Voat got overwhelmed by the refugee refuse of Reddit. (say that 3 times quickly)

Plus people deliberately trolling because they felt that shit stirring and stress testing the site was the best way to make the site better, when what it really did was drive people away.

finally, you have the parable of the duck and the hens:

http://www.heretical.com/pubs/fabledh.html

[–] PhunkyPlatypus 5 points (+5|-0)

It's sort of funny. Voat modified my opinion on the refugee crisis. Not through their words, but through their actions. I saw first hand what a flood of people who don't want to adapt to the culture can do. Especially as the ratio skews to the new group.

[–] Kannibal 3 points (+3|-0)

and they wonder why Voat went to shit . . . .

[–] [Deleted] 4 points (+4|-0)

I'm currently cross-posting on all three; Voat, Poal, and here. If things don't improve dramatically over at Voat I will likely scale down to just here and Poal.

As far as the community on Voat goes, I joined up about three years ago. Fat People Hate migration, even though I didn't frequent the subreddit. It was the final censorship straw for me.

[–] Justintoxicated 2 points (+2|-0)

Look, we can only grow in our already massive penis size.

Growth and community questions

52 comments

/s/Whatever