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We've been discussing about changing the voting system and make it as follows:

  • Everybody can give a limited amount of phuks ("votes")
  • Each user gets sqrt(LEVEL) "votes" per hour
  • A user can have up to LEVEL+10 "votes"
  • Nobody can downvote until X condition is met and a certain badge is given
  • A downvote would cost the same as two upvotes

An example: I'm level 15, so I get 3 votes per hour and I can have up to 25 votes at any time. It takes 9 hours to get 25 votes at 3/hr, so if in those 9 hours I spend my 25 votes, I can still get more for the rest of the day (at 3/hr, up to 72 per day, being level 15).

We've been discussing about changing the voting system and make it as follows: - Everybody can give a limited amount of phuks ("votes") - Each user gets sqrt(LEVEL) "votes" per hour - A user can have up to LEVEL+10 "votes" - Nobody can downvote until X condition is met and a certain badge is given - A downvote would cost the same as two upvotes An example: I'm level 15, so I get 3 votes per hour and I can have up to 25 votes at any time. It takes 9 hours to get 25 votes at 3/hr, so if in those 9 hours I spend my 25 votes, I can still get more for the rest of the day (at 3/hr, up to 72 per day, being level 15).

47 comments

[–] Violentlight 12 points (+12|-0)

If Voat has taught me anything, its that downvoting can be easily abused. So I like the extra weight that it gets. Voat was trying to take away power from mods. But then places like ProtectVoat were able to organize and aggressively turn other subs into their own echo chambers.

I like whats been suggested here.

I would like to keep it open to discussion though. Give the formula a few months to work out. But always be open to fine tuning it.

[–] [Deleted] 9 points (+9|-0)

I tend to give votes in bursts when I'm on. I'd say if you're going to cap it make it daily instead of hourly. Just my opinion but it's really not a big deal either way.

[–] Polsaker [OP] 8 points (+8|-0)

If you do it in burts, you would have all the accumulated votes from when you were not voting/online (up to the cap)

[–] SilverBanana 6 points (+6|-0)

Is the main objective to combat spam with bots that upvote each other?

I think the square root of level is a bit too low, for example I am pretty active, but it would mean only 4 votes per hour for me. I also think that point 3 is way too low.

But mostly, let's be vary to implement something that lowers actual good user participation. It is easy to lose attention of people who just stop by, they may not return if we limit them too much. I have not seen the need to get this system at all, not much spam so far.

[–] Polsaker [OP] 12 points (+12|-0)

We've been mulling about this because we think that the "classical" voting system is the main problem, and it would be better to make the difference early on than later on the game

[–] jidlaph 6 points (+6|-0)

Yeah we're worried about bots, alts, brigading and all the other ways people try to game the system on reddit or voat. Ideally we need a system that rewards contributors while discourages spam/bots, and yet doesn't discourage new phukers or lurkers

[–] PMYA 5 points (+5|-0)

I think a cap on the amount of votes you can have will encourage people to post and comment more. The majority of people that use these kinds of sites do not post or comment regularly. Voat tried to restrict the amount of votes that new users had, which lead to a lot of complaints from new users because they felt like they were left out. By putting every user in the same boat, and using the level system as a way to get upvotes, it will drastically cut down the amount of people voting with alts, and make people feel as though they are working towards getting votes, rather than having them restricted.

There is also the issue of the kind of content that gets heavily upvoted. Popular content is upvoted to All on Reddit and Voat, not good content. Limiting votes is going to make people think twice about what they're going to spend them on, and maybe stop the echo chamber/awful posts trap that is easy to fall into with voting systems.

Downvote Restrictions

They're a bad idea in my opinion. Let people downvote from the start, and make them be the same as upvotes. This is partly because people need to be able to downvote spam, and because of what I said above: it will make people feel like they're being restricted because they don't have something that other users have.

On @Silverbanana's comment

I think the square root of level is a bit too low, for example I am pretty active, but it would mean only 4 votes per hour for me. I also think that point 3 is way too low.

It is very low. Voat still has voting restrictions and I think I can vote around 800 times per day. I have not hit the limit since the first day of using Voat. In my opinion, having it this low will shift the focus of participating in the site away from voting, and more towards content creation or discussion. It will push the site slightly more towards the 4chan method of posting, except the content will stay there forever and we will still have votes to filter/sort content.

It is easy to lose attention of people who just stop by, they may not return if we limit them too much.

I read this comment on Reddit about Phuks the other day, and I downvoted him, but he is actually correct in what he says. At the moment, nothing separates Phuks from Voat or Reddit, other than the fact that Reddit has a ridiculous amount of traffic and Voat is a hive of scum and villainy. I think that by adding these features that do not exist on other sites, we will draw users purely because people are sick to death of the same format on every clone site. I have not seen a single instance of a site that is heavily based around voting that has ended well or made for a good platform for users. We should remove ourselves from that mould.

I agree on many of your points, but not this one:

Let people downvote from the start,

Too much abuse. The sockpuppets were at times more active on Voat than legit users. And that was with restrictions.

I can only imagine the shitshow that would result from brand new accounts being able to downvoat. The restrictions also re-enforce that they shouldn't be taken lightly.

Spam doesn't need many downvoats. A few is all it takes to drop it out of visibility, so I don't think downvoat restrictions will have a negative effect on spam.

[–] Boukert 7 points (+7|-0)

Amen to above!

I also back the idea of making downvotes more expensive then upvotes. Like @innocentbystander said a while back;

One limit I like is not being able to give out more total downvotes than up. If a user is having that bad of a time here, they should probably go elsewhere.

[–] PMYA 4 points (+4|-0)

That's a valid point, maybe @Polsaker is onto something. I suppose letting people downvote on new accounts would undermine the effect of limiting the total amount of votes users have in order to stop brigading, as account creation is so easy here.

That is also another point we need to consider. How do we keep account creation easy, but make it hard enough to stop people just making a new account every time they reach their limit and want to upvote one thing? We are currently even more susceptible to vote manipulation than Voat is, because there are so few users. Restricting the number of accounts on one IP does not really work, and I wouldn't want to force people to register with an email either. It's a tricky one.

but make it hard enough to stop people just making a new account every time they reach their limit and want to upvote one thing?

I'd be surprised if that ever became a problem. As long as the new account can't downvote, and only has a few upvotes, I doubt there'd be much damage done. And if they really need to give that extra upvote, let them.

I agree that IP restrictions are a bad idea. I understand why Voat did it. It is effective. But it also screws legit users. I often couldn't vote on things when I was at work because there is a couple other goats there.

[–] THC 5 points (+5|-0)

I wouldn't burden yourself with having to give everyone a badge to DV, that could get crazy quick when this place picks up.

[–] Polsaker [OP] 6 points (+6|-0)

I never said that I would be the one giving the badges

Takes out whip and looks at the other admins


Actually, I was planning to automate the task

An idea occurred to me.
What about making downvotes worth 0.5, and round up.

Spam, and crap would still sink fast. If a post gets no upvotes it sinks quick. Even at .5

But it would greatly weaken the 'disagree' button. Usually, if votes are mixed, then there is something worth discussing. Even if it is wrong. But often conversation worthy comments get sunk even if they get as many up as down.

I don't think it would have a significant impact on fighting spam and crap. But it would take a lot of power away from the type that try to fight differing views by eliminating them.

It might also make users more willing to speak if they don't have to fear people destroying their phuks taken because they thought differently than the hive.

[–] ashekchum 3 points (+3|-0) Edited

I'd make a posting limit rate too at 1per hour + (lvl)/2: and max post at 2+(lvl)*2 per day.

A level 15+ club sub. (Still think this is a good idea) Maybe do downvotes regen per hour at (lvl)-5 with cap of (lvl)*2-(15-(lvl)).

That or like PMYA said treat them equally something like a daily of 5+ ((lvl)/2)2 or the classic 2lvl+n.

Maybe remove restrictions with an administrator badge or pillar badge. Pillar badge would be a pillar of the community badge selectively given out to top users lvl20+ not literally hitler, ect. You could attach like a global spam clean up ability to that as well, (which isn't needed now) sort of like Cygnus on voat.

[–] PMYA 5 points (+5|-0)

I think a posting limit is a bad idea. One of the things we want is more content, and posting restrictions will definitely put new users off.

InnocentBystander made a good point in his reply to me above, and now I am siding with the idea of limiting downvotes more than the upvotes.

Regarding user privs like global spam cleaning, there is a hierarchy task on Phab at the moment. None of the levels have been assigned privileges yet, but I think it could be an ok idea if it's done in the right way. It would be a helpful feature, but I also think giving away too many privs or giving them to too many people could be a shitshow. Just look at what the mods on Reddit are doing, and they only have the ability to remove posts on certain subs.

[–] ashekchum 4 points (+4|-0) Edited

Post limit is mostly anti spam and it's kept pretty high perhaps make subs you mod not count in the limit.

You should post preposed levels there, and powers.

[–] E-werd 3 points (+3|-0)

perhaps make subs you mod not count in the limit.

I like it!

[–] Polsaker [OP] 5 points (+5|-0)

I don't like the idea of a sub people can't see, but having a mod setting where one can limit which users can post (by level) is something that I might implement

[–] mamwad 1 points (+1|-0)

I'm fine with most of this and heartily agree with the idea that downvotes cost more than upvotes.

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