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18 comments

[–] CDanger 1 points (+1|-0)

On the contrary, a holistic view of productivity, justice, and and the quality of society condemns their choices. Chose any metric and things are incredibly bleak in Yemen compared to just about any other place. Some evidence of their poor choices and values:

  • death for homosexuality
  • death for apostasy
  • death for blasphemy
  • nonexistent women's rights
  • nonexistent free speech
  • human trafficking
  • slavery
  • child marriages
  • genital mutilation

The list goes on and on, so in what way is my view narrow? What are their gems of culture and enlightenment? These policies and values and incompatible with a prosperous and successful society by any reasonable measure. And speaking of environmental disasters, they've made some poor choices even though they're running out of water, so let's not pretend like only the civilized world is responsible for ecological issues:

Agriculture in Yemen takes up about 90% of water in Yemen even though it only generates 6% of GDP - however a large portion of Yemenis are dependent on small-scale subsistence agriculture. Half of agricultural water in Yemen is used to grow khat, a narcotic that most Yemenis chew. This means that in such a water-scarce country as Yemen, where half the population is food-insecure, 45% of the water withdrawn from the ever-depleting aquifers is used to grow a narcotic that does not feed Yemenis

There is nothing of value here in their society and culture, only lessons on what to avoid if you want a functioning society. And these problems are almost entirely their own creation, not the result of some outside, exploitative influence.

Technological advances and capitalism certainly have their weaknesses and legitimate criticism, but they're not anywhere comparable in the civilized world to the disastrous society in Yemen, and in the areas that there are deficiencies, I certainly hope we don't look to the Middle East for inspiration on how to improve our society. So I stand by my point: they need to change, not us.

None of this is politically correct, and it goes against the currently-popular thought that all are equal, value in everyone, etc, but it is the truth, and like I said before, if we really care about people, we would do everything possible to put an end to this instead acting like their choices and the societies they live in have no relation.

[–] smallpond [OP] 0 points (+0|-0) Edited

The list goes on and on, so in what way is my view narrow?

I see all your listed points as minor and indicative of your narrow viewpoint.

What do any of those things matter when the technology of the developed world is about to screw up our ecosystem for the next few million years, dragging most large species (perhaps us too) into extinction? Better a dysfunctional primitive society, than an efficient cancerous growth.

[–] CDanger 1 points (+1|-0)

This isn't a battle of primitivism vs technologism (it's about their culture, values, and choices), but even through that lens Yemen is a disaster. Some of the Amish, Amazonians, Native Americans, Sami, etc live very primitive lives and don't carry out the atrocities that I listed. And plenty of the Yemeni's live in cities with cars, tv, cellphones, etc, so if anything they are on the side of technology. It's totally possible today to have modern technology and still have culturally regressive beliefs. Dismissing the real suffering of people as minor and narrow really says a lot about priorities.

Finally, it's a very pessimistic assumption that technology will inevitably lead to the total destruction of the environment and humanity. The truth is nobody knows how all this will play out. I too am concerned about what we're doing to the environment, but I have to balance that pessimism against human ingenuity and our history of overcoming adversity. And if anybody is going to solve these problems, it will be the civilized world where values of tolerance of others and free speech are embraced, not those who can't even function today.

[–] smallpond [OP] 1 points (+1|-0) Edited

As I recall this was a conversation about the worth of various people in different countries, and about making the world a better place. Of course primitism vs technology isn't out of bounds. Clearly I don't hold up Yemeni society as best-practice, I just think in the bigger scheme of things there's a valid argument that developed countries can be considered to be worse.

Finally, it's a very pessimistic assumption that technology will inevitably lead to the total destruction of the environment and humanity.

Technology has already led to major environmental destruction. Not pessimistic at all, minimal assumptions required. To imagine the destruction will stop anytime soon is deluded.

I too am concerned about what we're doing to the environment, but I have to balance that pessimism against human ingenuity and our history of overcoming adversity. And if anybody is going to solve these problems, it will be the civilized world where values of tolerance of others and free speech are embraced, not those who can't even function today.

That sounded like a political speech - which is a good indication of how much truth and self-awareness I think it contains. The Yemenis are not the problem. A society with little power can only screw itself over. Your 'civilised world' is the one fucking everything up for the entire planet - but let's completely ignore that and paint the villain as the hero.