This shit with the latest school shooting is pissing me off.
After everything spree shooting there's talk about gun control.
This time however the right is taking the moral high ground and claiming that's it's just wrong to bring it up so soon. While I can understand where they're coming from, I call bullshit.
If the perpetrator was brown these same people would be up in arms over border control.
So no. You don't get to play the moral high ground card here.
Personally, I think we should all revert back to double action revolvers and bolt action rifles. You still get your guns, but would limit the damage one can do.
There's most definitely a societal aspect. We're the top country for spree shootings. The gun culture here is borderline absurd. We're taught through media from a young age that guns can be a solution to a problem. Combined with our glorification of these perpetrators.
I don't believe there is a simple black and white solution. It's far too ingrained in our culture.
Deranged people have always existed, but the access to military grade hardware is a newer aspect.
Now the 2nd amendment argument certainly muddles the water. As there's good reason it exists.
I think it's time to have a serious discussion about a solution. Sadly everything is so politically charged it's damn near impossible.
Absolutely agree that there is room for discussion. And you may not believe this, but military grade weapons have always been available. And an AR-15, for instance, the big villain here, is nothing more than a semi-automatic rifle that has been publicly marketed for well over one hundred years. You could take every AR-15 tomorrow, but you've done nothing. There are hundreds of military or civilian rifles or shotguns that are identical in characteristics, many far more powerful.
Now I'm not smart enough to know what really needs to change, but I know for sure that nothing the government can pass as far as legislation is much in the way of an answer. As I said, it's problem with society, and how we've evolved from the days of my youth until today. Is is violent TV and film, video games, social media, who knows, but somewhere along the line society has devalued life in general. The problem is, we can never go back, that's for certain ... but arguing that it's all one thing or another ... or one political viewpoint or another ... just further divides us, it does nothing to find a solution. That's a big part of the problem right there. We've divided ourselves into armed camps right and left, and there is no middle ground. That's a big thing that's changed over my lifetime ... people no longer listen to one another, it's their way or the highway. There no longer is compromise for the better good. Sorry I have nothing more of value ... but to me, it's society itself that needs to change.
Amazing response, I'm so jaded from voat that elegant responses still astound me.
I've fired an AR-15 before and have looked into buying one, I'm not a total stranger to gun culture itself, though not quite as experienced as you are. There are hundreds of weapons with comparable killing power, so I can understand that the discussion centered around that particular weapon is pointless. That gun is a meme by this point. While civilians have always had some military weaponry available, for the first 150 years or so, it was far too expensive for the average person to be able to afford. Since the advance of semi automatic weapons the efficiency of putting lead down range and cost have both dropped dramatically. $500 gets me a decent high-point carbine and hundreds of rounds of 9mm.
I have really nothing to retort with your second paragraph as I completely agree with basically every point. People are so afraid of admitting they're wrong that they'll just bunker down despite any evidence. And it's no longer just on touchy topics like does god exist? But every single thing now, it's ridiculous.
There's got to be a solution somewhere, the rest of the world has tried different methods to varying success. What is it, like Norwary requires everyone to own a gun, and Australia outlawed them all. Those are two extremes that we could never accomplish.
What has changed in the last forty - fifty years to turn us into a society that allows this to happen?
Yes, what cultural philosophies took root in the sixties that could have led to this? /s
The counterculture types of the sixties were weird, but they were still at heart a product of their upbringing. They consciously rejected a lot of the stuffy discipline imposed on them by their parents, but had enough moral foundation that the peace and love commune thing kinda worked. Things fell apart, I think, when that generation (including the ones outside hippie culture but were strongly sympathetic) had children of their own; the movement was not well-equipped to raise kids with much sense of self-control or responsibility.
They're both perfectly fine using these tragedies to push their shitty agendas, and like the fucking shit eating hypocrites they are they'll always use the 'too soon' bullshit to shut down the opposing narrative as if they gave a shit about the people and families who died.
I'll be the first sick bastard to say that I don't give a shit about the people who die in these things. All human death is tragic, the bastards that keep doing this are fucking sick, and I imagine it's probably the worst fucking way to go.
But do I "feel" for the families of the people who died? For a couple of seconds if I imagine it has been one of my own family members, but then the rational side of me remembers that my family is fine, and scores of other people all over America, and all over the world, are dying by the fucking truckload, and sometimes in much worse ways.
My highschool had two would be shooters that were thwarted a couple years ago, and they were actually in my same year. Sometimes I think about if they had gotten away with it and I ended up dying, how I'd feel about a bunch of talking heads pushing out crocodile tears and sending "thoughts and prayers" to my family, who they've of course never met, for a couple days worth of news headlines, and then the dems go on about how my life would have been spared if we had just one more law in place and the GOPtards play the 'too soon' card.
These fucking vultures just need to shut the fuck up and stop pretending to care about people who died in a particular way. But of course nobody is going to do that, because then 'the other side' will trash them relentlessly for not caring about the victims of X tragedy.
Maybe if we stopped playing the devastation Olympics we could start using that time to work on better ways to catch these people before they do anything, like how they caught the bitches at my highschool (and should have caught the latest sick fuck considering how many God damned red flags there were). Guess that's just a pipedream though.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rampage_killers_(Americas)
So when is an appropriate time to have this conversation?
Columbine was a turning point because of how devastating it was. Now a days it's just another one on a list.
It's always a good time to have a genuine discussion.
So, I find myself somewhere between you and @Owlchemy. I agree with Owl that guns are a symptom, not the problem. They greatly aggravate the problem, but don't cause it. I believe if all guns disappeared, the killings would still happen, they'd just be less effective.
The US has been a gun culture for as long as it has existed, but only became a mass-killing culture in that last couple decades. So I don't think being raised with guns is a factor.
I think the snowflake mentality is a bigger contributor. When people start to think that they are more important than others, and are not taught empathy, then this type of lashing out can be expected when they come to terms with their lack of value.
I fully believe that guns have nothing to do with these types of killings, except that they make the killer more effective.
Gun control will never stop, or prevent these attacks, at best it can reduce the impact. The solution lies in mental and social health.
As far as gun restrictions go, I favour a Canadian style. Almost anyone here can get a rifle. But, you need to get a licence first. In order to get a licence, you must not be a violent criminal, not have been involuntarily locked in a mental asylum within the past year, and have knowledge of basic gun safety. That will allow the possession of hunting rifles and shotguns.
Assault rifles and pistols are generally not allowed. Anything that has no purpose other than killing humans is not allowed. Sport shooters can get pistols and some other rifles, but they are not allowed to carry them, only to be used at a range.
Now that does destroy the protection from the government angle, but we lost that once air superiority became the deciding factor. And the Arabs have shown that twigs and rocks are enough for an effective guerrilla force.
Now, I don't think that would have stopped the most recent attack. No gun laws will stop the attacks. But it will help.
I think the most effective thing we could do it introduce a new subject at elementary schools called 'Suck it up Buttercup'.
In that class children will be taught their true value, none. And that society owes them nothing, but they owe society everything.
Lol, we're all just a bunch of dirty centrists arguing.
I am completely for minimizing the impact of these spree shootings. If anything else, can we stop these casualties that now regularly reach double digits? I do feel like the normalization of killing through all sorts of media has an impact. More kids are being brought up playing FPS games like COD, the generation of the 90's playing DooM isn't even comparable in numbers. We've normalized and even embraced the destruction and deaths of "our enemies of freedom" for almost 2/3 of my life. Sure the actual enemies, fuck em. But we're already seeing the bigotry that that mentality breeds. Fuck, I'm getting way off topic.
I think the 24/7 news cycle media frenzy on these plays a major roll. If you look at the up tick of serial killers who came out after the Manson family fiasco. Hundreds of individuals sought their fame in copy cat killings and trying to out number others. Not saying some of them weren't going to do it any way or that there weren't other less publicized killers previously.
Actually, it's probably the same sort of snowflakes back in 70's that realized their insignificance and try to gain infamy like the guy on TV.
I don't mind Canada's approach. I know they allow .22 cal versions of other fire arms. And really, a .22 teaches you the basics of shooting. If you really have the aptitude to continue than you can pursue that.
Finally, as someone who shoots for fun, I know how much of an inconvenience it is to have to stop and reload after only 5-10 shots. But FUCK THAT inconvenience. I'd much rather have high capacity magazines banned than have to deal with this bullshit every other month.
I am completely for minimizing the impact of these spree shootings.
So am I, as long as we understand that it is only a treatment of the symptoms, and not a cure for the disease.
We still need to work on a cure. Unfortunately I think that sometimes too much focus is placed on symptoms, which allows the cause to be ignored. Or might allow people to implement some gun law, then do nothing about the cause because they think they solved it.
More kids are being brought up playing FPS games like COD
I'm not sure how much influence that has. No doubt there is some effect or relation, but I don't think it's too significant. Playing war may have a new format in video games, but it is nothing new. When I was a child I ran around shooting friends with BBs from a replica assault rifle.
We used to get in fist-fights for fun. Playing war was encouraged and glorified by adults. I hospitalized two friends, had my arm snapped in a fight, and was given a concussion by my older sister. And all of it was shrugged of to 'Kids eh?'.
We were savages, but we grew out of it, and despite all that, placed more value in human life then kids today.
It's a strange contradiction that minor violence is no longer acceptable, but human life seems to have become disposable.
I think the 24/7 news cycle media frenzy on these plays a major roll.
I very much agree with that statement. They trigger the edge cases, accelerate the normalization of the extreme, and inflame the causes.
This time however the right is taking the moral high ground and claiming that's it's just wrong to bring it up so soon. While I can understand where they're coming from, I call bullshit.
I sorta agree, but mostly because as far as I'm concerned it simply isn't on the table, not now and not later. Except to burn the restrictions that already exist.
Explain please what new form of gun control would have stopped this shooting?
What we have here is a societal problem far more complicated than a single issue. What has changed in the last forty - fifty years to turn us into a society that allows this to happen? Guns have always been there ... it's people who have changed ... I call BS on those who think there is a simple solution that will solve this.