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I think we briefly talked about this before the start of season 2, but decided not to do it because it would mean people would need to know certain bits of history.

I noticed there is a sub doing something similar on Reddit, /r/ColdWarPowers. Rather than it being more difficult to do than the normal ModernPowers, I think it might actually eliminate a lot of issues we had moderating it. For example, there is no way anyone can dispute something we know to be historically accurate, whereas people had all kinds of interpretations over stuff happening right now, and it was even worse once we got 20-30 years into the future.

The basic idea is we would start at the very beginning of the 20th century and go from there. The main difference between this and the current version of MP would be that certain historical things would definitely happen, no matter what players did. Both world wars, and maybe stuff like the great depression would still happen without any chance to stop it from happening, but they could play out in different ways. If we were going to do this, we would need to write a different ruleset, with a list of things that would definitely happen in-game.

There were also less countries in this time period too, so we wouldn't need as many players. There are probably 30 countries that would be worth playing as at the beginning of the 20th century.

I think we briefly talked about this before the start of season 2, but decided not to do it because it would mean people would need to know certain bits of history. I noticed there is a sub doing something similar on Reddit, /r/ColdWarPowers. Rather than it being more difficult to do than the normal ModernPowers, I think it might actually eliminate a lot of issues we had moderating it. For example, there is no way anyone can dispute something we know to be historically accurate, whereas people had all kinds of interpretations over stuff happening right now, and it was even worse once we got 20-30 years into the future. The basic idea is we would start at the very beginning of the 20th century and go from there. The main difference between this and the current version of MP would be that certain historical things **would definitely happen**, no matter what players did. Both world wars, and maybe stuff like the great depression would still happen without any chance to stop it from happening, but they could play out in different ways. If we were going to do this, we would need to write a different ruleset, with a list of things that would definitely happen in-game. There were also less countries in this time period too, so we wouldn't need as many players. There are probably 30 countries that would be worth playing as at the beginning of the 20th century.

11 comments

[–] TheRedArmy 3 points (+3|-0)

The premise is very interesting, and I definitely would be down for playing this.

I like your idea of having certain scripted events happen, but I wonder if we could make certain events happen if conditions are right_, and only make them extremely likely rather than required. This might allow players to arrange for major events - like the World Wars - to still occur, but perhaps the details and alignments are changed in some way.

So, take World War 1 - I think we can generally agree that the assassination of ArchDuke Ferdinand was the major catalyst for the war; the assassination led directly to the July Crisis, which prompted everyone and their mother to declare war on others. So, we can leave in that event as a "mandatory" historical event; the assassination prompts World War I if other conditions are appropriately met. A list that is, in my mind too short, but captures the idea would be something like this -

World War I occurs if any two of the following three conditions are met:

  1. At least half of the eight European great powers (defined as UK, France, Germany, Italy, Austria-Hungary, Russia, Ottoman Empire, and Bulgaria) are in an alliance with at least one other great power; no more than 3 alliance webs of this type may exist.
  2. At least three European great powers have mobilized their armed forces.
  3. Archduke Franz Ferdinand has been assassinated.

In this way, WW1 is still highly probable, but the shape and look of it may change. The assassination of the Archduke might be a major event during the war, if players are hostile enough. The alliance webs might also change - instead of the central and allied powers, we might have a different set of allies, or even three factions rather than two.

You can take this idea of conditions and apply it to almost every major event - make it highly probable in some cases, or maybe just lucky in others (we can mirror the ways history might have diverged in this way too), and then align the conditions appropriately. You can take it to the Great Depression, the rise of communism in Russia, along with the fall of the Tzars, Hitler's rise in Germany, the arrival of America and the Soviet Union as the only superpowers following WW2; you can make these events occur in a way so that the general idea is there.

Maybe we still have a cold war, but maybe Germany won WW2; having no good way to invade America, peace is eventually restored with Germany and Italy in control of most of Europe, Russia beaten back a long ways, and America having dominance of the Pacific after their victory over Japan. Now the cold war is between the European juggernaut of Nazi Europe and the United States; the race to develop ever more powerful nuclear weapons continues, and the proxy wars continue, but the ideological battle is between fascism and democracy, instead of communism and democracy.

I think making choices like this, so that the big, history-defining events still occur, but can take different forms, hits the right balance between a cohesive narrative that makes sense and player agency, where their actions and choices still matter.

A second idea I had was to introduce slight randomization of times on historical events. For instance, Archduke Ferdinand was assassinated on June 28th, 1914. But destabilization in that area had been going on for a few years before that, so it could have happened earlier; and perhaps things weren't so bad until a few years after 1914, so maybe the assassination occurs behind schedule.

For this idea, it's a bit more straightforward. Take a major historical event, and figure out a decent time period where it could have occurred. For the assassination, let's say 1908-09 (the years of the Bosnian Crisis, precipitated by Austria-Hungary), and maybe make it happen anywhere in a ten-year period. So from Jan 1909 to Dec 1918, the assassination can occur at any time during this period, and it's chosen randomly when we hit the period, and not revealed until it's time. This is a straight-forward randomization exercise; the day doesn't matter for our purposes, so we roll a die for the year and a die for the month, and we have our assassination date. So maybe WW1 occurs a bit earlier, or a bit later - but as a mandatory historical event, it always occurs; but no one can be sure when.

You can take this idea for every major event and give a slight twist on it - maybe the Great Depression doesn't really hit home until the mid-30's, possibly making WW2 an even more desperate affair (imagine the world still dealing with a depression as the war breaks out!). In this way, we can all brace ourselves for the bad shit we know will occur - but we can't pinpoint the month or year it will happen.

[–] PMYA [OP] 2 points (+2|-0) Edited

This is a straight-forward randomization exercise; the day doesn't matter for our purposes, so we roll a die for the year and a die for the month, and we have our assassination date. So maybe WW1 occurs a bit earlier, or a bit later - but as a mandatory historical event, it always occurs; but no one can be sure when.

This is probably the best way of doing everything. It is easy to change the probability of rolls based on changes that are made to the historical timeline by players.

I do like the idea of having certain requirements for events to be triggered though, although I can foresee a bit of metagaming going on where people are only posting to meet certain requirements.

edit: I do still think certain things need to happen on time exactly as they did IRL though. WW1 and 2 start dates should be the same.

[–] Lord--Gaben 1 points (+1|-0)

Does it really need to be exact? If it looks like it needs to happen, mods know the reqs, so they can push for it.

[–] PMYA [OP] 1 points (+1|-0)

I would like it to be. I think MP got too free form at certain times and turned into more of an RP sub rather than a game sub.

[–] TheRedArmy 1 points (+1|-0)

One way to avoid the meta-gaming is to keep the requirements secret in some way. Mod consensus and then mods just playing as fair as they can should approximate it well enough.

[–] cloud 1 points (+1|-0)

I'd be up for a game based in history, versus making up the future

[–] PMYA [OP] 1 points (+1|-0)

20th century history definitely interests me more than the present. One thing we would absolutely need to have is a good battle system though. The current one would just not be able to handle simulating both world wars.

[–] Lord--Gaben 1 points (+1|-0)

I would like this. It seems much easier to make tech progress since we know what actually gets invented, and we didn't really have good wars in MP. It seems like something new, and I like that.

[–] PMYA [OP] 1 points (+1|-0)

We are going to need a completely different battle system. Halfway through season 2, we adopted an automated rolling/asset loss system that made battles a lot quicker and easier to do. It also took different kinds of assets and terrain into account, but it was still very basic.

For example, I send 5 good tanks, 2 bad planes and 100 average soldiers into a built up area to fight. The defender has an urban area and defender bonus. His 3 bad tanks will lose, his 3 good planes will win, and his 100 average soldiers will also probably win due to his bonuses.

There is no strategy involved at all, and the side with the better assets is going to win, a vast majority of the time anyway. The only time a bad army ever made a significant dent in a better one was ISIS vs USA in season 1, and that was only because I rolled a ridiculous amount of 10's against @BoujeeBagels.

If we are going to do this, we will need different battle systems for WW1 and WW2, because the combat is incomparable. Ideally, I would like to incorporate a Hearts Of Iron style approach to combat, but that is extremely complex and we will need to think about optimising it to a level where it is doable on a large scale with many fronts. I also think we will need a different way of keeping time. In the event of large battles happening on many fronts, I think we should slow down time for everyone, rather than freeze the battle and have it go on for about a year because the rolls are taking too long.

I will think on this and make a post with some ideas for a new battle system later.