Can someone explain the whole "cultural appropriation" issue to me?

[–] jidlaph 6 points (+6|-0)

It's a tidy little "damned if you do, damned if you don't" system. It is a large part of why I'm dismissive of the idea that Trump is bigoted, because according to these people so is algebra, air conditioning, making burritos, tiny houses, in-class testing, and hard work.

[–] Boukert [OP] 4 points (+4|-0)

perpetuating and reifying whiteness.

from https://www.campusreform.org/?ID=9874

WTF does that mean?

[–] TheRedArmy 4 points (+4|-0)

I'm more shocked by the title.

Prof: 'meritocracy' is a 'whiteness ideology'

I guess they never studied China, like, ever. Meritocracy is actually the core method they used to determine bureaucrats. During the Han era, they would give some selection of students examinations, and take the best ones and train them to be civil servants.

To your question, though -

The issue really is that the individuals who believe these things want to tear the whole system down. Their beliefs, I think, is that the United States systems - including its government structure, capitalism and free markets, and history - are all institutionalized forms of racism. By continuing to perpetuate those systems and the beliefs many American citizens hold - like the idea that hard work can help you to succeed, and your individual efforts are a meaningful part of how you got to where you are - you are effectively propping up and upholding an inherently racist structure. The only cure for it, in their eyes, is to either destroy the system and build something else, or revolutionize the system by changing it to such an extent that it is no longer recognizable anymore. That's my understanding of it.

[–] TheRedArmy 5 points (+5|-0)

The basic idea, as I understand it, is this: The original European explorers/colonizers sailed off from Europe and found the rest of the world they didn't know about. In doing so, they met and then eventually became imperialistic against the various peoples and cultures, and in doing so, stunted their development and took their resources and all this (this might seem irrelevant to what you're asking, but I think the roots of the phenomenon is based in this). Note also that, to many who would argue there is "cultural appropriation", it is primarily, if not completely done only by whites (because Europeans were the primary colonizers/imperialists, but hardly the only ones; but here in America, we leave about European exploration far more than any other. No mention of Zhang He's voyages from China, for instance).

So I think, consciously or not, modern individuals who argue that whites are culturally appropriating are thinking of the old days of imperialism, and it's just become modern imperialism. The argument is we're taking what these other native peoples have, taking their culture/history and making it into our own. The idea is that members of a particular culture can engage in that culture's style and their food, dress, customs, and so on, but if you are not a member of that culture, you cannot.

It's also worth noting the arguably racist position of people who argue there is cultural appropriation. A white child who grew up their entire life in Japan would still likely be accused of appropriation for engaging in Japanese culture, even though that's all they've ever known. The problem here is that their white - their motives, history, individuality are all irrelevant to the color of their skin. Their skin color supersedes all other considerations.

Finally, the reason why those who accuse others of appropriation would almost never accuse a Japanese or black man of appropriation of white culture is that many of these people do not believe that whites don't have a culture. Doesn't matter where you come from and where you grew up or what your values are. All whites, everywhere, are responsible for the imperialism of the past of their group, and so all members of the "white" group should acquiesce to others because they are the ones in power and responsible for the ills of the other races, so all whites are the "oppressors" and all other groups are the "victims".

I think this is what happened with the Martin-Lin thing. Because Martin has probably heard this some and thought about it and agrees with it to some extent. So he sees someone with dreadlocks (a traditionally "black" hairstyle), and thinks, "Oh, that's someone appropriating my culture". So he wants to speak out about it. He does, but comes off looking like a complete asshole because the whole thing is dumb as shit. All the while he's got Chinese tattooed on his arm, and the reason he probably didn't think about it was because no one has ever called him out on it. He's a black person, therefore a member of the "repressed, victimized" class (never-mind that he will have infinitely more money, power, and influence than someone like me, despite my white skin), no one would dare to call him out on appropriation.

Does that help?

The basic idea, as I understand it, is this: The original European explorers/colonizers sailed off from Europe and found the rest of the world they didn't know about. In doing so, they met and then eventually became imperialistic against the various peoples and cultures, and in doing so, stunted their development and took their resources and all this (this might seem irrelevant to what you're asking, but I think the roots of the phenomenon is based in this). Note also that, to many who would argue there is "cultural appropriation", it is primarily, if not completely done only by whites (because Europeans were the primary colonizers/imperialists, but hardly the only ones; but here in America, we leave about European exploration far more than any other. No mention of Zhang He's voyages from China, for instance). So I think, consciously or not, modern individuals who argue that whites are culturally appropriating are thinking of the old days of imperialism, and it's just become modern imperialism. The argument is we're taking what these other native peoples have, taking their culture/history and making it into our own. The idea is that members of a particular culture can engage in that culture's style and their food, dress, customs, and so on, but if you are not a member of that culture, you cannot. It's also worth noting the arguably racist position of people who argue there is cultural appropriation. A white child who grew up their entire life in Japan would still likely be accused of appropriation for engaging in Japanese culture, even though that's all they've ever known. The problem here is that their white - their motives, history, individuality are all irrelevant to the color of their skin. Their skin color supersedes all other considerations. Finally, the reason why those who accuse others of appropriation would almost never accuse a Japanese or black man of appropriation of white culture is that many of these people do not believe that whites don't have a culture. Doesn't matter where you come from and where you grew up or what your values are. All whites, everywhere, are responsible for the imperialism of the past of their group, and so all members of the "white" group should acquiesce to others because they are the ones in power and responsible for the ills of the other races, so all whites are the "oppressors" and all other groups are the "victims". I think this is what happened with the Martin-Lin thing. Because Martin has probably heard this some and thought about it and agrees with it to some extent. So he sees someone with dreadlocks (a traditionally "black" hairstyle), and thinks, "Oh, that's someone appropriating my culture". So he wants to speak out about it. He does, but comes off looking like a complete asshole because the whole thing is dumb as shit. All the while he's got Chinese tattooed on his arm, and the reason he probably didn't think about it was because no one has ever called him out on it. He's a black person, therefore a member of the "repressed, victimized" class (never-mind that he will have infinitely more money, power, and influence than someone like me, despite my white skin), no one would dare to call him out on appropriation. Does that help?

[–] Boukert [OP] 4 points (+4|-0)

So you just, disregard any history, nuance, facts, traditions, cultures and cultural customs.... then start judging people on the color of their skin and holding them accountable for anything any of their forefathers did............ yeah that sounds really familiar, my 93yo grandmother has a lot of stories about those kind of people!

This is one of the most racist fucking phenomenon's I have ever heard off, how the fuck is this done so blatantly in the open and getting acceptance??? I mean MLK must be turning in his grave.....

And yeah it's helpfull. Not for my bloodpressure but it clarifies, somewhat..... like dressing in other cultural garmants has been a sign of motherfucking respect since like forever for christ sakes.

I liked Lin's response in general, very classy, smart and correct. but seriously the Chinese are an oppressed minority????...... 20% of global pop and the Chinese where never colonised by the west, they rather did this exact same thing to others (ask a Vietnamese who he hates most, and it won't be the French or Yanks)

The goddamn Japanese even rewrote the motherfucking book on Imperialism, slavery and general fucking crimes against humanity... They more Chinese in 8 years then white men in the entirety of history...... by far for christ sakes. Everyone is always pointing towards "Ze Germans" but the Imperial Japanese forces killed an estimated 4-7 million civilians all by themselves. Their goddamn general tactic in occupied territory was starvation, decimating, demotivation and then Japanese cultural indoctrination..... I mean the nukes where horrid all by themselves (nobody ever mentions the firebombings) but it wasn't like the Jap's weren't severely asking for it.

Telling others what not to wear, Isn't this in essence fascist?

How about you keep that kind of lunacy on your side and we won't polder (reclaim land from the sea) the Atlantic.

So you just, disregard any history, nuance, facts, traditions, cultures and cultural customs.... then start judging people on the color of their skin and holding them accountable for anything any of their forefathers did............ yeah that sounds really familiar, my 93yo grandmother has a lot of stories about [those kind of people!](https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/2014-12/31/15/enhanced/webdr03/anigif_original-grid-image-25869-1420059175-13.gif) This is one of the most racist fucking phenomenon's I have ever heard off, how the fuck is this done so blatantly in the open and getting acceptance??? I mean MLK must be turning in his grave..... And yeah it's helpfull. Not for my bloodpressure but it clarifies, somewhat..... like dressing in other cultural garmants has been a sign of motherfucking respect since like forever for christ sakes. I liked Lin's response in general, very classy, smart and correct. but seriously the Chinese are an oppressed minority????...... 20% of global pop and the Chinese where never colonised by the west, they rather did this exact same thing to others (ask a Vietnamese who he hates most, and it won't be the French or Yanks) The goddamn Japanese even rewrote the motherfucking book on Imperialism, slavery and general fucking crimes against humanity... They more Chinese in 8 years then white men in the entirety of history...... by far for christ sakes. Everyone is always pointing towards "Ze Germans" but the Imperial Japanese forces killed an estimated 4-7 million civilians all by themselves. Their goddamn general tactic in occupied territory was starvation, decimating, demotivation and then Japanese cultural indoctrination..... I mean the nukes where horrid all by themselves (nobody ever mentions the firebombings) but it wasn't like the Jap's weren't severely asking for it. Telling others what not to wear, Isn't this in essence fascist? How about you keep that kind of lunacy on your side and we won't polder (reclaim land from the sea) the Atlantic.

[–] jidlaph 2 points (+2|-0)

the Chinese where never colonized by the west

Yeah but they were still dominated by that whole Opium Wars thing.

[–] TheRedArmy 2 points (+2|-0)

So you just, disregard any history, nuance, facts, traditions, cultures and cultural customs.... then start judging people on the color of their skin and holding them accountable for anything any of their forefathers did............

Essentially. But it's worth noting that in the eyes of the people who accuse others of it, it's very much a one-way street. No one will say to a Chinese living in America "You can't do X because of your oppression of Vietnamese in your nation's past". It's a dishonor reserved primarily, if not completely, for whites in America. Because "whites" as a class hold "all the power". It's like the argument how black people cannot be racist in America because "racism requires institutional power" (it doesn't, obviously, but that's the argument). Because blacks, latinos, etc are "oppressed minorities" in America, they get all the protection from whites, but that does not work in reverse.

Also worth mentioning on one college that has gone particularly far down the insanity road (Evergreen State), some students held a seminar called "Why Asians might just be part of the problem" (of White racism). This was one a day, mind, called a "Day of Absence", a tradition at this school that was based on a play. This past year, they perverted the original tradition (which was designed for blacks to remove themselves from the school and do community work outside the campus, as a way of highlighting their importance and value in the community) to instead demand all whites remove themselves from campus, so as to create a kind of "safe space" for minorities. This was unenforceable, of course, but many students and faculty did acquiesce, and did not show up solely on the basis of their skin color, under demand from others of a different skin color.

So yeah, shit's fucked.

This is one of the most racist fucking phenomenon's I have ever heard off, how the fuck is this done so blatantly in the open and getting acceptance??? I mean MLK must be turning in his grave.....

That's what I say.

How about you keep that kind of lunacy on your side and we won't polder (reclaim land from the sea) the Atlantic.

Believe me, if I could throw this, ANITFA, and Neo-Nazis all into the dumpster next to each other, I would.

If you're interested in more detail about the Evergreen situation (which I think is important and relevant and happening in many places), I recommend this podcast. This man was a professor who became embroiled in controversy there, so he has an insider's look into what was going on at the university and the culture there.

> So you just, disregard any history, nuance, facts, traditions, cultures and cultural customs.... then start judging people on the color of their skin and holding them accountable for anything any of their forefathers did............ Essentially. But it's worth noting that in the eyes of the people who accuse others of it, it's very much a one-way street. No one will say to a Chinese living in America "You can't do X because of your oppression of Vietnamese in your nation's past". It's a dishonor reserved primarily, if not completely, for whites in America. Because "whites" as a class hold "all the power". It's like the argument how black people cannot be racist in America because "racism requires institutional power" (it doesn't, obviously, but that's the argument). Because blacks, latinos, etc are "oppressed minorities" in America, they get all the protection from whites, but that does not work in reverse. Also worth mentioning on one college that has gone particularly far down the insanity road (Evergreen State), some students held a seminar called "Why Asians might just be part of the problem" (of White racism). This was one a day, mind, called a "Day of Absence", a tradition at this school that was based on a play. This past year, they perverted the original tradition (which was designed for blacks to remove themselves from the school and do community work outside the campus, as a way of highlighting their importance and value in the community) to instead _demand_ all whites _remove themselves_ from campus, so as to create a kind of "safe space" for minorities. This was unenforceable, of course, but many students and faculty did acquiesce, and did not show up _solely on the basis of their skin color, under demand from others of a different skin color_. So yeah, shit's fucked. > This is one of the most racist fucking phenomenon's I have ever heard off, how the fuck is this done so blatantly in the open and getting acceptance??? I mean MLK must be turning in his grave..... That's what I say. > How about you keep that kind of lunacy on your side and we won't polder (reclaim land from the sea) the Atlantic. Believe me, if I could throw this, ANITFA, and Neo-Nazis all into the dumpster next to each other, I would. If you're interested in more detail about the Evergreen situation (which I think is important and relevant and happening in many places), I recommend [this podcast](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xq4Y87idawk). This man was a professor who became embroiled in controversy there, so he has an insider's look into what was going on at the university and the culture there.

[–] Greenseats 4 points (+5|-1)

In short, it is just another way for radical SJWs to put white people in their place.

[–] InnocentBystander 4 points (+4|-0)

This really is the heart of it. The concept breaks down the moment it is analysed. That's why you're not allowed to question it without being labeled a racist.
My favorite response is "ok. I'll give up dreads and peanut-butter when you move into a mud hut."

'Copying' another culture is the highest compliment you could give it, in my opinion.

Can someone explain the whole "cultural appropriation" issue to me?

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